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Nuanced.
Where real conversations happen — with host Aaron Pete.
Nuanced.
210. Aaron Gunn: Free Speech, Conservatism & The Charlie Kirk Assassination
Member of Parliament Aaron Gunn joins to discuss free speech, the Charlie Kirk assassination, conservatism among young Canadians, Pierre Poilievre, drug policy, the residential school debate, and why authenticity and common sense still matter in Canadian politics with host Aaron Pete.
What made you interested in wanting to understand these issues?
Aaron Gunn:Because as voters, we're basically the shareholders of our own country. And if we're not informed or properly informed, then how can we make good decisions?
Aaron Pete:When did conservatism become something you were interested in, or where you felt more comfortable in in terms of your ideology?
Aaron Gunn:Because it seems to be cool to be conservative, which is not the case when I was 19 as somebody who was conservative on campus.
Aaron Pete:I think it would be tone-deaf not to acknowledge the recent political assassination of Charlie Kirk. Are you willing to share your reflections on what happened and how that may have impacted you personally as well?
Aaron Gunn:I'm a lot closer to this than the average person, and you know, we've had threats. We always hope that the temperature doesn't get quite as hot here in Canada as it does in the United States. It's helping the Chinese communist regime at the expense of Canadian workers.
Aaron Pete:In 2022, you tweeted there was no genocide, the Holocaust was a genocide. I'm just curious, what are your reflections on that now? Mr. Gunn, it is an honor to have you on the show today. Would you mind please briefly introducing yourself?
Aaron Gunn:Sure. Well, yeah, Aaron Gunn. I'm a member of Parliament now for North Island Powell River. But uh most people who might be listening or watching this uh this podcast would uh may know me from my documentaries. So I've built a reasonably prolific career over all the major social media platforms and uh produced over 20 documentaries over the past couple of years, some shorter, some longer, on everything from economic issues to resource development issues to uh maybe most notably the addictions crisis and drug decriminalization and that kind of suite of issues, um, with two documentaries in particular, Vancouver is dying and Canada is dying. And uh but yeah, now I guess I'm just another politician.
Aaron Pete:Can you tell me about going down that journey and starting to document your understanding of what was taking place? Because it's these issues are so complicated, and you decided to start to document them and try and understand them. What made you interested in wanting to understand these issues?
Aaron Gunn:Well, I I was always I think I have a natural curiosity and interest in politics and the world around me. So that that was organic. And then uh there came a desire to have an impact and a purpose in society more broadly, and then probably matched with a frustration at what I thought was the media, in many cases not doing their job to have uh investigative journalism, real conversations, sometimes tough conversations about certain issues. Um and so especially like the documentaries that mean the most to me are the ones where I felt that I was providing a voice that wasn't out there. So on the drug issue. I remember when BC uh just around just before COVID and especially during COVID, went through this drug decriminalization experiment, started to hand out um free opioids, what they called safe supply, watching homelessness in my uh my home city where I grew up in Victoria, go from almost nothing to horrific tent cities sprouting up everywhere. And we didn't seem to see any narratives questioning the policies of are we doing the this this approach of harm reduction, of injection sites, of may of reducing stigma towards these substances, to handing out free drugs. Is this really the right approach? Um, or should we maybe be taking a rethink and looking around the world? So uh that was just one example where I wanted to um, and this is actually why, and I've really started listening to your podcast, which I which I really like and you're you create such a service to Canadians, is you are generating debate and generating these important conversations that are essential for our democracy because as voters, we're basically the shareholders of our own country. And if we're not informed or properly informed, then how can we make good decisions when we go to the ballot box and how can we set expectations properly for our politicians? So um it's uh so, anyways, that's how I got into it. I went on a little bit of a tangent there, but yeah, it was something I was pa passionate about, still am passionate about.
Aaron Pete:Interesting. Can I ask, did you it it sounds like the lack of coverage influenced it, but were you politically inclined as you were making the documentaries, or did that start to come about through your understanding of the issues and starting to go, oh, there this is a problem here and and the current government isn't acting, or were you going in and going, I know the government's doing a bad job and I'm gonna document it? Like what was your kind of political philosophy development during this period of your life?
Aaron Gunn:Yeah, so interesting. So I I had strong political views. I've always had strong political views. Uh there are some documentaries where it was the approach was uh here is an issue I see in society. I think this is this is um uh this is the this government approach is wrong. I believe we should be doing this instead. Um let's go create a film to basically almost like a you could think of think of it as like a newspaper op-ed, but in documentary form about why I think this is wrong. And let's talk to people that I've met along my political journey to help kind of narrate that. Uh and then there are other documentaries where the actual documentary re what had ended up being changed as I was making it, because I discovered uh things that I had no idea as I was making the film. So that the drug one was the perfect example. Like I when I started making Vancouver's Dying, I did not know that they were handing out free drugs on the the pharmacies in downtown Vancouver and downtown Victoria. I did not even I hadn't heard of Safe Supply. So I literally found that out as I was making the film. I didn't know, I hadn't talked to very many people in recovery who had gone, who had been addicted, who had lived on the streets of downtown Vancouver. One of my biggest surprises when making that film, there's obviously critics of it, but is the amount of people that come up to me who say that film was so important, who used to be addicted to hard drugs, are now living in recovery. And they are the ones that are the most opposed to these policies of harm reduction, destigmatization, handing out drugs. They tell me that if when I was living on the streets, um they just gave me a free place to stay in free drugs, then I would either still be doing drugs or I'd be dead. And um, touring some of these recovery centers, including uh in New Westminster, the ones they were building in Alberta, um, it was a really eye-opening experience. And talking to people that are sometimes the frankest and most honest interviews that I engaged with were people that were living on the streets and actively using, because they just they just tell you what they think and they don't and they don't really care about the the repercussions or what anybody thinks of them.
Aaron Pete:Aaron Ross Powell Right. You said you were politically inclined. When did conservatism become something you were interested in, or where do you felt more comfortable in in terms of your ideology?
Aaron Gunn:I think it was like I developed like going back all the way to high school, I got into politics, I think, simply because my family wasn't very political, but we had a newspaper on the the kitchen table every morning. So we'd be eating breakfast. I think when I was like in grade three, I was reading the comics, and then by grade five, I'm reading the sports section, and then you know, by grade eight, you kind of want to be like dad and reading the headlines and reading the news. So that's how I got into kind of following current events, let's say. And then how I developed kind of a uh propensity towards conservatism. I think a lot of it goes to how you were probably raised. My grandfather was a really big influence on me. My grandfather, my grandgrater, he was uh a refugee who came from uh escaped during the revolution in communist Hungary in 1956. So we heard the stories about uh you know when communism came to Hungary, how their store got taken away from them, um uh just the repressions on basic civil liberties. Um similarly, my grandmother growing up in southern Italy, uh, abject poverty, living on a basically living like you know, working seven days a week just to put food on the table so the family of eleven can be able to eat, and any extra food you have you sell so you can buy the bare essentials like shoes or or what have you. And just the whole never complaining uh mindset, the the lack of like a I mean, you know, the victim mentality, which you might end up talking about. I mean, they lived incredibly difficult lives, both living through World War II, and um, you know, came to Canada with nothing, didn't expect anything from the government, started my grandfather worked minimum wage on the railway, um, then started working and then eventually got a job at the mill and just kind of built everything that they have through hard work and determination and strong family values. So I think that for me, that kind of the the ethos of hard work, freedom, and and strong family values are like the building blocks of of conservatism.
Aaron Pete:Thirty-six percent, uh, an abacus poll found uh of Canadian young people aged 18 to 29 are considering themselves conservative. And in comparison, only 19% uh are for the liberals and 27% for the NDP. So we have now uh the largest population of conservative young people. Uh growing up myself, I mean, there there's this old saying of like if you're not like an NDP or a liberal when you're young, you're heartless. Um, but if you're not uh conservative by the time you're old, uh you're clueless. And so there was that old adage, and that seems to be somewhat going out the window with the rise in young people becoming conservative. Did you see the the writing on the wall on that, or were you just kind of growing up in that and starting to experience that yourself? How does that interact?
Aaron Gunn:Yeah, it's it's been it's quite something to watch. I mean, I really feel I'm a millennial, so I've really seen it with my generation, like a huge move towards conservatism. I I I would say it's reflective of a move towards conservatism in in culture. Like, like to me, like comedy is an important barometer. You've seen like I remember stand-up, like all the comedians were like very liberal when I was growing up, and now they've really switched. I feel like at least half of them are a conservative might be the wrong word, but really pushing back against the the extremes of like the the left, let's say, just to use a r uh an overused uh and simplified term. But it's um yeah, it's I guess maybe a way of uh another way of putting it is it seems to be cool to be conservative, which is not the case when I was 19 as somebody who was conservative on uh at high school and on university campus. It's so there's been a there's been of a change. I think I think part of that maybe, as I'm just kind of thinking on my on my feet, is that um the the the NDP or the Liberals or the Left have become more of the establishment, um, maybe a bit more authoritarian, like you must act like this, um, or you're not a good person, or or whatever the case may be, where I think conservatism has embraced more of the values of individuality and free speech and free expression and these kinds of things that I naturally appeal uh to younger people. And then I I also would say that I feel the economic promise that was handed down from previous generations hasn't really been delivered for for younger people. It's so hard to get into the housing market. Um we've you know, wages aren't rising as fast as the cost of living. And for the most part, if you're a baby boomer and you have your house paid off, you're doing okay. And I think with young people, they feel like things are getting worse and not better. I think that's the other thing that's really uh pushed them towards conservatives and conservatism.
Aaron Pete:When we talk about conservatives and the conservative movement and young people, uh I think it would be tone-deaf not to acknowledge uh the recent uh political assassination of Charlie Kirk, uh the role that he played in encouraging young people to be politically active, to have positions, to defend their positions, and to go on to universities and debate these, where I think it's not controversial to say many young people don't feel like that is the place anymore to debate ideas to the same extent you would have expected all throughout university's history. And I I don't want this to be political, but you are a conservative his viewpoints very much align with the conservative movement, obviously not all of them, but there's a big conversation taking place right now about what that political assassination means, how we should digest that. You're a person who's very much been out in the public eye, been willing to have these tough conversations and interact. I'm just are you willing to share your reflections on on what happened and and how that may have impacted you personally as well?
Aaron Gunn:Yeah, it's it's it's um it's probably one of the most impactful political events for me personally. And I can tell you speaking for what conservatives in the meeting look, we I got back from Ottawa, so we we we were, you know, days after this had happened, I was with uh my conservative colleagues, and people were people were s sick to their stomach. Um they're very upset. Um many of my colleagues had had met um Charlie Kirk and his family at different events over the past ten years. Um there's also a there's a the frustration some with how it was covered by some mainstream media outlets here in Canada. Um for myself personally, like it's it's um I I think and I think it is this this went w well beyond conservatives that I I saw Bill Maher's comments, I saw I I've talked to other friends of mine who are not conservative. I mean, for somebody to be shot and killed who's got a young family simply because they held different views than you liked or that you did, is is the antithesis of everything that our society is built on, that our democracy is built on. And I think that that shook a lot of people. Obviously, it was also like there's video of it, like like millions, tens of millions of people have I'm sure have seen that video, which is even more shocking and disturbing. It happened right in front of a bunch of young university students, uh, a couple thousand, I think. And um for and then again for me personally, I mean I used to you know, I I wasn't Charlie Kirk, but I went to universities to give uh speeches and was protested. So like, you know, I'm a lot closer to this than than the average person. And, you know, we've had threats repeat you know, if we you always uh hope that the temperature doesn't get quite as hot here in Canada as it does in the United States, but it's still like um yeah, it was a it was a weird feeling. I try not to get like it just it felt like a pit in my stomach for a couple days. And um it was good to be in Ottawa because it was just therapeutic to talk to other MPs and find out that you know they have went through the exact same experience. And we've got a couple MPs in our caucus that have been very outspoken and and um uh so yeah, it was um yeah, it's it's I'm hoping that it's not a sign of things to come, and I'm hoping it's it's a it's a moment where we can reflect as a society that that actually come together. And I think it, you know, n for all the talk about the the really some of the vapid and disgusting comments online, which there's always going to be, I think 80-90% of people were were rightly kind of shaken up by this a little bit, just as much as it's it's you know, the idea that you would take someone's life because they held a different view than you is just so not Canada, not the United States, not not the West.
Aaron Pete:I really hope that those comments that we're seeing online, because I do see them even on my own feed of people justifying or explaining away. And I really hope that the root of that isn't malevolence, but it's that idea that everything's just happening on a screen, that it's not real life, that it's a video game, that there's you're just typing things into a screen. It's not that you would actually say go to his funeral or something and actually have those positions because I mean I I couldn't believe more that both positions are so important, and that when the conservatives are in power, they need to be challenged by strong liberals, and when the liberals are in power, they need to be challenged by strong conservatives, and that there isn't one right answer. There's a constant negotiation we have to try and find truth, to try and find what policies are gonna serve the middle class and the lower class and and make sure that somebody when they're young who's born into terrible quality circumstances has the opportunity to move into the middle and upper class. And I feel like we want to feel like we're all Canadian, so we're all in the same boat. But I I do believe a certain level of classism is important in order to be able to say you are at the bottom rung of our society in terms of your opportunities, but you can go and make something of yourself. And that's kind of the promise that I've heard you talk about and Pierre Polyev is there's this idea that you can just work hard and make something of yourself and go places. And when that opportunity starts to deteriorate and young people who went and got the university education, went and did the things they were supposed to do, cannot reach the same levels that their parents did, that something has gone amiss, and that we need to try and figure out what that is. But when we start just demonizing people for taking shots at what could be the issue, then we really disconnect ourselves and and become an immature society. And that's my big fear is that we want to be told what makes us feel comfortable rather than what might actually get us out of these circumstances. And I think there's a huge danger in that and why someone like Charlie Kirk, whether you agree with him or not, he was willing to have the conversation. And I don't want to see a a cold spell over wanting to have conversations because this is when we need them the most. And I think that's how you honor somebody like Charlie Kirk is by by making sure that those conversations don't end.
Aaron Gunn:I I agree, and I think I'm I'm optimistic actually that that everything all told that this event will lead to more Charlie Kirks, more pe young people wanting to get engaged in politics, standing up and and having that that courage to have difficult conversations. But it's um I mean, yeah, it's uh it you know, obviously part of the early evidence that's come out on this on the the um assailant there, the shooter, was uh again in these online bubbles where I think you can get you know, one of the great things that um when I was going to school and into university, the internet was there and it was rapidly growing and expanding, but it still was kind of in its infancy still, and you still, you know, would go hang out go to parties, hang out with other people in real life, you'd have no choice, you're gonna be interacting with people that have different views than you. You obviously don't want so you get to know people and your friends with people that have different views than you. And so you obviously aren't gonna want to shoot somebody just because if you get trapped in these online um uh you know echo chambers where you're just surrounded by people that keep reinforcing an ideology. And if you get in an echo chamber that has a real extreme ideology where that's then constantly reinforcing itself, that's where I think you can become disconnected from reality and then can become potentially dangerous.
Aaron Pete:I agree. Uh moving forward, I'm curious. Uh Pierre Poliev has come onto the scene. Uh, I think that was during your your video documentary period prior to you deciding to run. What influence did he have on you as you were looking at running uh and what has it been like uh to work with him? What are your thoughts on Pierre Polyviev?
Aaron Gunn:I I probably wouldn't have run if it wasn't for him. So I wasn't planning to run. Uh and then I mean the short history is um Aaron O'Toole, who who was not as strong of a conservative uh to uh one way to describe it, um, was was removed as leader by the caucus. And uh then there was a leadership race. It became I I endorsed Pierre during that leadership race. I went out to one of his events. I also became pretty clear, I think, or it came clear to me that he was going to win. And um but pretty much soon as after that leadership race had concluded, I started I talked to him and talked to his staff about potentially running because you always, with other leaders in the past, uh if you have someone who's outspoken that has a big platform of their own, they might view that as a negative because they just want people that are just gonna tow the line, that are just going to not steal any attention away from the leader himself. But to Pierre's credit, he's got um such confidence and deserved confidence, such a grasp on the issues, and he actually wants to be surrounded by um people that um bring ideas to the table, that have their own voice, that have their own platform, who can then reinforce reinforce and complement the job that he's already doing. So he was he was encouraged me to run. I think I was the first candidate in British Columbia uh confirmed. Um it was a very long wait that then preceded that being a confirmed candidate before the election, which was less fun. But uh yeah, so he's been great to work. It's great to have him back in the House. So now that um, you know, he's in the chamber uh leading us, uh I just had lunch with him the other day, so chatting with them on the issues. He is he is so laser-focused on the issues, on crafting the best set of policies for Canadians. Our biggest problem right now as conservatives is every time we come up with a good idea and convince a majority of Canadians uh that this is the way forward for the country, the Liberals just take that idea and then uh present it as their own, whether it's uh scrapping the carbon tax, or now they're claiming they're gonna bring in bail reform uh or they want to build pipelines spontaneously. So uh these are ideas we've obviously been talking about for a long time. So I guess all it's good for the country that they're they're uh borrowing the ideas as far as we're concerned.
Aaron Pete:Aaron Powell Why do you think he lost his riding?
Aaron Gunn:I think he lost his riding just because of I mean I'm a big believer that that uh in this past election, a lot of it a lot of the riding by riding discrepancies are explained by demographics. So we had a demographic realignment. And um uh so the riding that he has has been changing. It's becoming more it's a suburb of Ottawa, so it used to be more kind of semi-rural. It's gradually become as every city expands. So Vancouver is no different. Obviously, some areas in the valley used to be heavily conservative. Now they're more uh of a toss-up or more competitive just because they've turned into just suburbs of a major city. In the case of Ottawa, those suburbs are, I mean, uh mainly people that are public servants working for the federal government that tend to not vote conservative. Um and they thought that the conservative government was going to cut the public service, which uh we probably would have because we had to, which is why the Liberals are now also doing it. Um but they didn't campaign on that. So that's I so that's generally what I think happened. Um and uh but yeah, you see us do um well in some places and and not others, and I think it can be explained away by different the biggest change you can look at the average age of a different writing through Statistics Canada, and that lines up pretty well with how the different trends the other of course the other thing that happened in his riding is the NDP vote collapse. So I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the NDP went from like 12 to 1 or something like that. And I believe he also got more votes than he got last time, but turnout was up everywhere, so it was yeah. And he obviously couldn't spend any time in the riding because he was traveling around the country as the leader of the party.
Aaron Pete:So Right. After the he had lost uh in that riding, there were big calls, and after the election, there were big calls on it's time for reflection, what can we do better, where did we miss the mark? There were huge growth. Uh, I think Andrew Schear did a good job of trying to highlight where you saw like significant growth. But I'm curious, what were those areas of reflection and what could Pierre Polyev be doing better?
Aaron Gunn:Well, I I mean the first thing to point out which you alluded to is that if two years ago you said the Conservative Party is gonna get like 41 percent of the national vote, are you happy with that? We would have taken it in a heartbeat. I mean, it's the highest percentage of the vote since the 1980s for the party. Uh it was more than Stephen Harper got when he won his majority government in 2011, significantly more. And um so uh on the face of it, we did quite well. Um the NDP vote collapsed, and 80 percent of that collapse went to the Liberal Party. Um the bloc vote partially collapsed mainly into the Liberal Party. Um but that's not to say that we couldn't have done better and we didn't r struggle with some groups. I mean, we were we were did very well with young people, millennials, Gen X. We struggled a bit more with seniors. Um it was a weird convergence of events with Trudeau stepping down and then obviously Donald Trump deciding to uh uh uh have this weird obsession with Canada and just poking us in the eye as much as possible. And the Liberals were able to uh take advantage of that politically faster and better than we could. Um and I think in hindsight, maybe we would have reacted a bit differently. But Pierre to his credit, like he wanted to focus on the issues that we could control as Canadians, that we saw that it's the federal government's failure over the past 10 years. So whether it's on crime, whether it's on the addictions crisis that killed 50,000 Canadians, whether it's housing prices that have gotten completely out of control, whether it's the highest inflation in 30 years, now we see unemployment starting to tick back up, whether it was failing to get any major national resource projects, almost any major national resource projects built, whether it's doubling the national debt in 10 years, which is completely unsustainable, and spending more money on interest payments than we than we do on our entire military, which was also in probably the worst state than before World War II. So we wanted to focus on the issues. And the Liberals, I guess, to the political cr to their political credit, were were able to just kind of I think virtue signal on stuff that was happening in the states that was completely uh outside of our control and was able to capitalize on a collapsing NDP vote, and that was enough for them to win a minority government, and uh hopefully we'll get a chance to go again in the not too distant future.
Aaron Pete:Aaron Powell One of the big criticisms that I've spoken with uh MP Brad Viz about, uh J.J. McCullough and others is the lack of interviews and long-form discussions during that period where we saw in the US Donald Trump choose to go on multiple platforms and do long-form interviews. And I had dubbed right in the beginning of 2025 that this was going to be the podcast year for Canada. It did not end up going that way. Uh there was a decision by multiple parties not to want to do long-form almost all of them. And do you think that was an error?
Aaron Gunn:I think we definitely could have done more media, specifically in Canada. Now, there were other questions being asked about like, you know, should you like Mark Carney launched his campaign, I think it was on like the Daily Show in the States, and I'm sure Pierre could have gone on Rogan or something if he wanted to, but I don't think it would have made sense politically, given what was happening at the time, to go to the United States to do interviews as as big as those individuals have audiences in Canada. I do think we should have done more media in Canada. I think pretty much everybody in the party agrees that that we should have done. And I think we've seen that since the election. I think we'll see see more of that going forward. And I think we'll also see more of not just Pierre getting out there, but other MPs getting out there. I mean, uh hopefully this is an example of it sitting sitting across from you and having this conversation.
Aaron Pete:Yeah. As you know, or as you may know, I I'm a First Nations chief. So I'd be remiss if I didn't ask um about this. In 2022, you tweeted there was no genocide, the Holocaust was a genocide. I'm just curious, um, what are your reflections on on that now? That that was about three years ago. Have your perspectives changed or or do you still hold true to that? And and what is your perspective on what happened with First Nations and Indian residential schools?
Aaron Gunn:Yeah, well, I've heard I've heard some of your interviews on the subject, which I think have been very I mean, I just think we were missing so much of that in our society right now on this particular issue, having those difficult conversations. I mean, my point was um I mean, like I I think I've had 10,000 posts, so definitely would have maybe framed my thoughts differently. I obviously wasn't a politician or running for political office at the time. But I do think it's important one to have conversations, the importance of language and the importance of defining what we mean by different words. I believe there was a poll out uh a couple years ago where they were asking this question about what Canadians thought about genocide. I'm not even sure if it was in relation to residential schools, but most Canadians didn't even know what exactly it meant or what version, what what definition that we are using of that particular word. Um what I do think is important to point out is that something can be horrible, regrettable, terrible. People can die, people can be hurt, um, there can be intergenerational trauma, and still doesn't necessarily mean it's a genocide, in my view. In my view, genocide has a very specific legal definition. There's also people that have um if you go back to the truth and reconciliation report, um I would I would consider that like the report on the effect of residential schools, they obviously could have referred. Referred to it as a genocide, and they referred to it as a cultural genocide, which to me is more appropriate. The um when this came up in the media, there was a lot of um well, I I would have preferred to do more media on it to clarify things, but the um they would use that comment and sometimes try to say it was in some way a repudiation of the truth and reconciliation report back from I think it was 2011 or 2013. 2015. Um the post that you're talking about were was in relation to another report that actually uh accused Canada or made the accusation that we were committed genocide like under the U.N. definition and we're committing ongoing genocide under the U.N. definition. I definitely don't think that we're committing ongoing genocide today. Um I don't think for a variety of reasons we committed that Canada is a genocidal state, like that it as bad as the residential schools were, that they should be compared to something like the Holocaust, uh where you know six million Jews died or things that happened in Rwanda. And I mean I think it's also just part of the uh uh problem in in you know nuance is hard to get across in today's society. So how do you how can something be um horrible, regrettable? People were hurt, um, we want to learn from it, but maybe we shouldn't be comparing it to the Holocaust. And to me, that was my perspective on on residential schools, and I still have lots to learn from it, and I'm happy to I this is what one of the reasons why I was excited to be able to come on to your show. But that's kind of that's kind of my views. I don't know if that's I don't uh I don't know if the if any of the interviews that I heard with you, if you kind of laid out what how you navigate that word or that uh the definition or what it means to you.
Aaron Pete:I don't think that it was a genocide um because that requires the intention. And but I I can see why that would be inflammatory because it didn't come with some of the pretext and and post text that you provided of it was horrible, it was terrible. And when you just say something like it was not a genocide, that leaves people to wonder, do you think it was a good thing? Do you think it was and we have another quote here uh that you said uh you've suggested some indigenous bands asked for residential schools. Um and I I don't know if you have any historical context to support that claim. Um, but that's another one of the challenges is say one did. The over the there were a lot of residential schools, so even if you can reference two or three examples, that does not suggest that the the overwhelming amount of First Nations people at the time wanted residential schools.
Aaron Gunn:Right, right. So so the inter this one of the reasons, one of the things that frustrates so this all comes up during an election campaign. Yeah. And obviously you can imagine with a national campaign, they don't want you talking about anything to do with this. So it's like you cannot now contextualize or provide uh background to where these conversations came from. And I had some really good convers. I mean, I talked to I d I uh I never want to talk about who I had private conversations with, but I talked to a couple of chiefs in the riding who I consider friends who who were wanted to hear hear me out and were comfortable with the explanation. Like, for example, the conversation or the the tweet that you just mentioned about some indigenous bands as so that so that's part of a tweet thread that gets screenshotted there that is strictly and most of my commentary on this issue has been a defense of John A. McDonald, not a defense of residential schools. So that's that that's simply about the point of and I think it's so my big uh point on this is that all of these bad things happened. But one of the most important things to understand is it was not the result of a bunch of malicious, nefarious actors in Ottawa for the most part, that I can tell. But from people is that the whole the old saying, like the the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There were a bunch of people who thought they were doing a good thing that were actually pushing this program.
Aaron Pete:Do you think that's true? Uh well, from Like we have some quotes, you must have seen some of these quotes from Sir John A. McDonald. Not all of them were I I've got the best of intentions here. Lots of them were calling us savages and saying we need to get these people out of the savage home, put them in these schools. The whole point of the residential school system, because in speaking with Francis Widowson, her point was like, oh, like in other countries, like in in a communist country, they actually had priests go into the communities and educate and support. And that had a different effect because the culture was able to continue. But Canada didn't take that approach. They pulled the children out of their community, put them in schools surrounded by people who told them what to do. And that resulted in the absolute destruction of the culture. But the design of the schools was always known with the in that it wasn't gonna have the proper air filtration and that they were going to be squished into these buildings that was never going to allow for tuberculosis not to spread, like it was gonna encourage the spreading of tuberculosis by their designs. But had you left them in the communities, you would have been outside just like in COVID if you were outside. If you weren't squished into these buildings all the time, um sometimes not being cleaned, you're gonna have higher rates of tuberculosis. So his comments dovetail perfectly with what ended up happening in so in a lot of circumstances.
Aaron Gunn:I mean, I mean, I I don't want to go into the to all of the the wormholes of it. I I think it was a forced assimilation program that I think destroyed many facets of Indigenous culture. And I think that was that was wrong. And it it came from a perspective of kind of cultural supremacy. But it wasn't, it was uh which I think is something that we should learn from. Um and I think it was the look, if you if you if you're in the if you're some guy in the 1800s and you think you have the superior culture, then you've then and I and by the way, this clearly was this was you know not a controversial thing at the time. This was kind of just a reflection of, I think, Canadian thinking at the I would say Western thinking, because it was happening in the United States and Australia as well. So I think it was just a um a logical extension of a faulty premise that um uh as you pointed out, the the the other example of you know there was a way to um bring schools and education to the communities without having the destructive uh cultural effects um that obviously ended up happening in many cases. So but I don't think we can have uh I don't have my book of John A. McDonald quotes on me, but there's um uh I mean I think he has been maligned so horribly, um so taken out of context. He was such a progressive voice at his time. Um he was somebody, and as a lawyer, the first person that he ever defended uh who was facing the death penalty was an indigenous gentleman who he he got off uh that charge. He was um voted to uh he pushed to extend voting rights to Indigenous people. The Liberals then took those voting rights away and they weren't brought back in until Diefenbaker. Um he has quotes about uh how he can't wait to see Indigenous people represented in the House of Commons. He um uh so he was attacked for providing in the House of Commons again for providing food aid to indigenous bands who were starving on the prairies. So um this this the point there isn't to um somehow run defense for John A. McDonald's to it's to say that it's complicated, that it's a complicated picture, that the 1800s were not 2025, that he um in many cases I I think I like I would say whatever you think of him, he was definitely of the two political forces in the late 1800s, he was considered on the progressive side of things. He was the first leader in the Western world to credibly propose extending the voting rights to women. He granted black Canadians the right to vote. So you none of these things come up in the we're gonna tear down the statue debate. I mean, even just like the simple fact I think that he was the one pushing so hard to extend voting rights to Indigenous Canadians should raise some questions about the caricature that has been uh created uh surrounding him.
Aaron Pete:Trevor Burrus, I don't think any of us can live up to the morals of the future, you know? Like I don't think we can ever when we look back, we have to do it with a level of humility. And I'm I'm certainly in support of that, and I've continued to learn more. And I think there is a huge challenge when only one side of the political aisle is allowed to speak on the issues or raise perspectives. And I appreciate you being willing to raise this because I think the the points in this are really valid. I guess my only follow-up would be the challenge I see conservatives often have is often they come across as unsympathetic to the plight of different minority groups, uh, because the the the broader point is important, but that's what I think even in these in these posts sometimes gets lost. And this isn't to to malign you, but that from my perspective, often liberals and and people on the political left are often very we care about people, we want the best for people, we want people to succeed. And I think that's still something that conservatives believe in, but it's perhaps not what they lead with. And the the context of other pieces that would bring the temperature down and allow people to hear some conservatives gets lost when those other pieces aren't mentioned or commented on. Do you think that's a fair assessment?
Aaron Gunn:Yeah, I mean I mean the the the liberals are much better at leading with with emotion. I mean, I think that fr I mean, for me though, it it frustrates me because I think we have we've had a lot of do we've had 10 years of a very emotional public policy based on signaling virtue but not delivering results. And to me, that doesn't improve people's lives. I mean, the first documentary I filmed was on um it was called Do All First Nations Actually Oppose Pipelines? So that's when I was interviewing Alice Ross up in Kidamat. Um people from the I think I can't remember this is now five years ago, but basically all the First Nations, I think it was Sintay Nation in Burns Lake, um basically all along the coastal gas link pipeline route. And you had a bunch of activists there who were uh staging protests across the province, across the country actually, including in Vancouver, um, and were trying to prop up like they were standing up for indigenous rights, but then you wouldn't actually go to these communities and know actually, like every every uh first First Nation band had voted in favor of the pipeline, had signed benefit sharing agreements with Coastal Gaslink, who viewed it as a tremendous opportunity to lift their people out of poverty. Many of them were working on the pipeline and the construction. And to me that that was so that's a foot. So they were leading with a motion, but I think it was like it was false, basically. And I do think we need to and and that's actually it's we're back to the start of this conversation, because that's where I went out and made the documentary, because I wanted to try to show it. What I would say is that in a documentary, it's much easier to get the full picture across than it is that uh in a tweet on Twitter. Because you might have noticed I didn't get attacked for any of my documentaries that I did or any of even the short form videos that I did. It was all tweets and usually screen grabs of tweets that were part of a large larger thread. And um, so that's maybe a good point of of uh the dangers of of of if you're going to weigh into topics like this, you should you should do them with in the context of longer conversations.
Aaron Pete:Aaron Powell I would tend to agree with that. The next question I have is what are your thoughts on Mark Carney? Prime Minister Mark Kearney?
Aaron Gunn:I think that he is like the job he's doing- I mean I don't know him personally, so I'm assuming you mean as as Prime Minister. I think right now he basically hasn't accomplished anything, but in fairness, he hasn't been there very long. So I think most Canadians are in the still in the wait-and-see approach. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Six months in. It's getting there. I think kind of January is where he's really has to, you know, he's talked he's talked a big game on building national projects, and for the most part, he's just kind of re-announced approvals of things that were already happening. Um there doesn't seem to be any new pipelines being built. He the fiscal situation is probably the most worrying. I b we're all well, there hasn't been a budget yet, so it's hard to critique. All you can say is there's no budget, and he's been there for for six months. But everyone's expecting the deficit to go even higher. Um I think the housing market is incredibly shaky. Um obviously we haven't got you know you know, I b uh I sympathize in the sense that it's m hard to strike a deal with this administration in the United States, but he also kind of went around the election claiming that he was the expert deal maker and he could deal with Trump and six months later, no deal. So we haven't really accomplished anything. So um my view is that he's done the easy things that everybody can support. Um, you know, he's said that they're gonna try to speed up projects, they've given our men and women a uniform a well-deserved raise. But governing is about making tough choices, is about making trade-offs. And um I don't think he's done any of those things yet. Um I'm happy to to to uh reserve my more heated criticism for six months down the road if he hasn't acted. And we've we've tried to as a party um work with the Liberals when they presented legislation, even if we don't think it's perfect, that would be better for the country. So on C5, for example, we helped amend it during committee um and then voted to pass it so that uh even if it's not perfect, hopefully it can get some of these projects speeding up faster than they would have.
Aaron Pete:One piece that I I got to see a video that you posted was on the BC Fairies. I think it was the CEO, right? I found that really interesting and and almost tragic in a way because the point you were making was just again, it like I know it's the the party slogan, but like common sense. Like, why would we not want our BC fairies made in BC? And I don't know if it was the CEO going in and trying to be prepared for the tough questions he was gonna have to answer, but I I just feel like honoring the fact that like it really sucks we didn't make these here. And like that is an absolute tragedy, and we will do better. Like, would have been the easy answer that I think we all could have gotten on board with. And I just I worry about political talking points taking over the conversation at times. What were your reflections on on that conversation with the BC Ferry CEO?
Aaron Gunn:Well, I my my time in the committee over the summer was definitely the most fulfilling time I've had as a parliamentarian so far, to be able to sit across from someone in that position, first the CEO of BC Ferries and then Gregor Robertson, the Minister of Industry, and basically to have five minutes for them where they couldn't they had to answer your questions. And you kind of hold them to account, hold their feet to the fire. That's why I ran for office, is to try to try to raise awareness about these issues and and create change in our society. Um I think the BC Ferries decision, I think it shows, first of all, it shows a lack of long-term strategic thinking in this country. I mean, we had uh some of the commentary who basically said, you know, we need these the the pat the pat the ferries are almost at capacity, like we need these right away. It was like, well, the ferries they're replacing are 40 years old. So why are we why are we just deciding here at the last seconds, well, we need we have to build them in China because we can't wait five years to build our ship or ten years to build our capacit, shipbuilding capacity up here in Canada. Um the other thing is the essentially they basically admitted this. I mean, we have great shipbuilders here. We've got great Canadian tradespeople. They know how to build ships. Um I think we're efficient at building ships. The steel, the aluminum, you know, the materials are about the same. They have cheaper labor and they have lower environmental and labor standards than we do. So don't we don't we want to have higher wages and higher regulatory standards here in Canada? But are are we not just what's the point in having them and then just sending the sending the jobs to another country? Like it defeats the entire purpose of having those higher standards here in the country. And then I mean you can go down the list the fact that this is uh basically an adversarial nation of Canada. I mean, there's you know, we can't reveal everything as parliamentarians, but this is a country that is well documented, engages in cyber attacks on a regular basis, uh, that is is is multi- that kidnapped two Canadians and held them hostage in China, that is currently engaged in massive tariffs on our seafood industry, our canola industry. And um this is a company in China that is literally owned by the Chinese Communist Party. It's a state-owned company, and we're giving them a billion dollars, and we're subsidizing it with a like a low-interest loan from the federal government. And it's just it's just uh completely um and then you have every pol all these politicians, whether it's provincially or federally, pointing, no one wants to take responsibility for it. The B.C. Ferries basically says they had no choice, and then the provincial government says it wasn't our choice. Uh we dislike it, but BC Ferries made it. And then, even though they're the only shareholder in BC Ferries, then you have the federal government who openly admitted in documents that have since been released that the purchase wouldn't have been possible without their low interest loan trying to wash their hands of it. I just think it's it's just another poor public policy decision. It's the antithesis to common sense, as you pointed out. And I think also ignorant of the new kind of uh geopolitical reality that we're entering. I mean, if uh things in the world are becoming more competitive, um, you know, China built something like 6% of the world's ship by displacement like 20 years ago, uh twenty twenty five years ago. Now it's fifty percent. That wasn't an accident. That wasn't uh China just is so good at building. That is a decision by the Chinese state government to create a state-owned industry to corner the shipbuilding market by undercutting everybody so that they have that shipbuilding potential. And this is an industry that is obviously dual military civilian applications, and their primary objective is to one day take back Taiwan. So I mean, and we're basically subsidizing it with a loan. So it's just to me, it makes it makes no sense. It's it's helping the Chinese communist regime at the expense of Canadian workers, Canadian companies, and Canadian industrial capacity.
Aaron Pete:May I close by asking about how what does this next year look like from your perspective? Uh you guys are back sitting in the house. What is your role? How do you hope to continue to to bring your voice uh to the House of Commons?
Aaron Gunn:Well, my role is obvious to be first and foremost a loud voice for the constituents of my riding, to uh uh to be a loud voice for for for common sense within the party, within the House of Commons, um, to keep making videos. We've done a couple in the summer, but once the offices are all kind of running very smoothly, I want to get back out and doing that concurrently with being in the House of Parliament. And also never forgetting um you know having that sense of humility which you mentioned, which we don't have enough of in our society, and also just continuing to be um acting with you know, it's it's an honor to be elected by your fellow constituents, to go there um in one of the the oldest, continuous democracies in the world, to stand in these in in the chamber where so many people have have stood before you to do the best that you can to guide the democracy on its right path and to deliver for for constituents, for people that are that are I I think for too long in this country, just the the the average Canadian, I don't need and I don't mean I mean average in like a in a in a positive way, um, who pays their taxes, who works hard, who raises their family, uh, who follows the law, um, but isn't part of any special interest group has kind of been forgotten and sent to the back of the bus. And I think those are the people that we should be putting first. Um they're the foundation of the country. And um I think that that's when we're shaping pop public policy, that's the person I I think first, first and foremost about somebody that's that's so busy with their own life just trying to make ends meet, make that mortgage payment, raise their kids, get them to hockey or soccer, whatever the case may be, that you know, they're that uh they almost don't want to tune into politics. Um and I just think there's been too many public policies that that that haven't that they've been getting f left further and further behind, and that we should be one of the wealthiest countries in the world with the amount of resources we have, the amount of ingenuity, educated workforce, uh geographic position in the world. So um yeah, it's the you know, there's a hundred different specific policies from crime to housing to taxes to to to fiscal management that that fit in that under that purview. But to me, that's those are the people that I want to fight for. And I was asked a question the other day, or not the other day, on a different podcast, I said, what does populism mean for you to you? Everyone throws around this word populism. The first thing I said was, first of all, I hate words like that because it means something different to to different people, and it's kind of the weaponization of language has always been part of politics. But when I think of kind of populism, or or how I would like to view it in a positive light, is that when I interact with a voter who might be a a plumber or an electrician or a waitress or a school teacher or a nurse or a paramedic, is that I enter every conversation with the humility that I have more to learn from them than they have from me. And that's what I think makes a good r representative, and that's what I'm uh aiming to do. That's what I strive to do. And I have a very big writing, so it's a lot of work. But I think I think we'd all be better off as Canadians having more of those conversations and going in with an open mind. Doesn't mean you're gonna agree. You might come away from that conversation and be like, well, I I listened, but I didn't agree with anything that person said. But you gotta be able that you gotta have that openness of mind, um, or else I just don't think you're gonna be able to bring bring people together. I don't and I don't think you'd be a you you'd be a good representative. So that's what I'm gonna try to do.
Aaron Pete:Aaron Powell How can people follow your work?
Aaron Gunn:You can follow me on uh well YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and X, I guess are the four places I am. I think if you just type in my name into Google, that's probably the fastest way to track me down on all those very or into the apps themselves, and um or at AaronGunn.ca. But um yeah.
Aaron Pete:Member of Parliament, Aaron Gunn, it has been a privilege to speak with you today. I think one of the things that gives me the most hope is, again, no talking points, no angling, no repeating certain slogans. Uh you came here very authentic, very thoughtful, and and willing to engage on ideas. And that gives me a lot of hope in the direction that we're moving. And I'm hoping to see more and more young people like yourself willing to enter these arenas, have these conversations. Uh, and I think the the the most interesting part in having the opportunity to speak with you was that you started learning about the issues prior to talking about them. You started to, uh, you had your own political perspectives, which is natural and normal, but you were willing to go and look into things. And you might think, and I think this is changing. It used to be, say, a retired doctor would run for a member of parliament and go see what they could do. But as the landscape's gotten more complicated and the issues have gotten more complicated, we have individuals like yourself trying to understand the issues before they put their foot in the political arena so that they can actually go in and do something because they've seen those front end. They're not living in the suburbs, having no idea what people in poverty are living like. You're going and investigating those things and bringing that to the House of Commons so that it is actually a thoughtful debate based on what's actually happening, not on what people think is happening, uh, because British Columbia often feels like it's being left out of the conversation. And the fact that you're doing these documentaries capturing what's happening from your perspective and then bringing that back, I think, is just a sign of the political evolution we're going through. And so it's been a privilege to get a deeper understanding of how that all came about.
Aaron Gunn:Well, I it's it's been a privilege to talk to you. And I hope that uh as I'm representing my constituents in the House of Commons, I won't have as much time. I'm gonna still try to do some videos and some journalism uh uh as a member of parliament, but um hopefully shows like yours can continue to take off. You've done you've given such a valuable service back to Canadians um to have these conversations, to have these debates. It's so much. I can tell you it's not like uh uh most conversations in the mainstream media. And um my only regret is that I couldn't have done it sooner. So thank you so much for having me. It's uh it's really a pleasure. And we got to get Pierre on the show. So I can uh I'll put in a good word.
Aaron Pete:Uh the honor is all mine. Thank you for being willing to drive out and and make the time because uh I'll say this in closing. Uh it's much more conservatives who are willing to accept the offer and come on the show and have tough conversations uh than I'm seeing uh from the left. It's not that I'm not inviting them, it's not that I'm not willing to engage with them, it's that they seem to be less interested in getting into the complexity of certain topics. That doesn't mean that it's zero, uh, but it's far less than I'd like to see. So again, just I really appreciate you being willing to share your time.
Aaron Gunn:Yeah.
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