240. Chief Billy Morin: Conservative MP on Poilievre, Carney & Indigenous Politics

Member of Parliament Chief Billy Morin discusses Indigenous Services Canada, Pierre Poilievre, Mark Carney, reconciliation, property rights, floor crossing, fiscal responsibility, Enoch Cree Nation’s economic turnaround, and the future of Indigenous politics in Canada with Aaron Pete.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You've talked about how First Nations don't simply need more investment from governments, that they need empowerment. Could you elaborate?

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Indigenous Services Canada is just a broken system. 8,000 employees, $25 billion budgets, and KPIs from 2015 that make absolutely no sense.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

How do you look at reconciliation as we look out into the future?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

The government has cheapened reconciliation to a little talking point.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

What are your thoughts on Pierre Polyev?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I wish Pierre was prime minister. And Pierre is really good at summarizing complex issues down to results oriented from every Canadian family across the country level.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

You were recorded saying liberals were trying to poach you. What happened?

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Minister Galmatti just formally sent me a message saying, Do you want to have this conversation?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

What are your perspectives on Prime Minister Mark Carney?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

This government for last year's is a lot of talk. We're going to announce something. Then we're going to announce the next step of the plan. Then we're going to the next step of the plan. Then we're going to announce another plan. A plan to have a plan. That's all I really see out of this. This government is going to give uh Mark Kearney a failing grade on the expectations he set and the results that we're actually getting a year in.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

How do we balance having uh tough conversations about the realities of the lack of excavation uh with calling people like Francis Widowson and others denialists? Chief Billy Morin, thank you very much for joining us today. It's an honor to speak with you. Would you mind briefly introducing yourself for people who might not be acquainted?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah, Natoki Topi, Mitsigasan, Maskegse Oche. Uh Natoki Topi is actually a blackfoot word, so it's sacred writers, my name. Um, and I'm from Enoch Cre Nation, which is Muskegsi, uh First Nation, just that borders the city of Edmonton, and I'm now the member of parliament for Edmonton Northwest and the Conservative Shadow Minister for Indigenous Services Canada.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

You were elected at the age of 28, becoming uh the uh one of the youngest chiefs. What was that experience like? What called you to run? Can you give us a little bit of your backstory?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah, I um I'm Billy Morin, also uh the the fourth. Uh I have a son now who's the fifth, and uh I just recently became a grandpa, so now uh I'm I'm a mushem, and he's uh Billy Morin the sixth. And the first Billy Morin was chief in the 50s, uh, my great-great-grandfather. Um his his dad was was chief, and so it's kind of always been in the family. We don't have a true hereditary system out here in in Enoch anymore. Um, but uh public service was always kind of in the blood there. And uh from a young age, uh, you know, that's just always what I wanted to do was be like my grandfathers and help lead the community. Um, so so that's what I did.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

And and why did you run? Did were you called to do so? Did you just feel the responsibility? Were you seeing challenges within the nation?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, yeah. Uh so, you know, I I I I'd always wanted to run. Um, you know, I made that known throughout my growing up, and it was kind of the positive pressure put on me. But, you know, what I did decide to run, we kind of skipped the generation usually, you know, my predecessor was uh uh he was in his early 50s, uh Chief Ron, and and uh we went from early 50s and and many, many years of experience down to a really young, young chief. And and quite frankly, I came in with another group of people who were under the age of 40. And, you know, our nation just at the time was was ready for new leadership, I think. And um, you know, we we have a great gaming operation, one of the biggest in Western Canada, um, but we really would desire it to be more than that. And um, I just bring a vision that we can move beyond just it's still what we're known for, but more than just being a gaming operation and the community was ready for change, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

May I ask, when you come into these positions, there's a lot of pressure and a lot of people don't understand what that journey can be like. What was that experience like trying to lead a nation? And what do you believe does it take to become a good leader?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah, that the the you know, I often get asked the question, you know, what's harder? MP or or chief? Like, like, and quite frankly, uh to be blatantly honest, uh Chief's harder. Um Chief at this moment in time. Um, Chief was was a harder job. Uh, you know, maybe asking again in a year or three years where we are from now. Um, I'm in opposition right now, but Chief was harder. I remember the one of the first conversations I had when I said I want to run uh for chief was with my grandmother. And uh she said, no, you can't. And um, I've never disagreed with my grandmother in my whole life, um, but that time I did. And I said, Yes, I am. And uh we left it at that. And we we, of course, she still loves me and I love her. But uh, you know, when you're chief of a nation, um you you're you're you're really what I like to say is running a family business, like like most First Nations, whether 2,000, 3,000 people, um, you're you're operating a family business. And so that's the major, one of the major differences between politics. I think politics is all the same. Um, governance is a lot of the same things in democracy. But for First Nations in particular, it's your family, your direct family holding you accountable. And that pressure is really, really immense. And uh, you know, people, that's why I say, well, going to Ottawa, um, it was my fountain family that hardened me up because uh, you know, it's a little tougher when you can't uh they come to your door and they have full access to you. And uh you really have to, you really have to uh be accountable to them. I mean I haven't talked to when I first became chief to I did some really hard things. Um I had to do a forensic audit on our finances, and you know, that was too that was really hard to do. Uh we were running an $8 million deficit at the time. Um we were running 1980s um administrative aspects for a really huge uh $60 plus billion dollar 60 60 million plus operations. So I chose to do that and we had to have some really tough conversations with my own family on on uh misappropriation of things. And uh again, it's just it's it's it's harder when your own family because you don't talk to them for a few years after that. But uh now that I'm retired and went on my went out on my own um my own uh my own proition uh my own choice to leave at the time, uh things are actually good going home. I was actually just my elders yesterday and it was nice to talk to them.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

What did you learn during the experience of being chief?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

In Alberta we have treaties. Um obviously yesterday uh it's a big time in Alberta right now when it comes to treaties and their impact on this province and this country and section 35 and everything. But um one of the what I learned is the importance of of kind of the base of treaty. And it's just at the end of the day, it's people working together. And before I remember when I first became chief and we walked into Premier Notley's office, um, but the other the other chiefs, and again, I was I was always I was the new rookie guy there, I was really young, and the Chiefs would go around having asking for for um the chiefs would go around asking for for more funding for certain programs, and rightfully so. But I just I just took it a different direction. I'm like, hey, can I help you out with something? Can I help you out with healthcare? And we we didn't agree with the the the uh me and the the premier of the time didn't agree. But what I'm getting at is I learned like I wanted to stand out and really work with the city of Edmonton. I want to stand out and work with the province of Alberta. I want to stand out and work with Canada rather than just being the old school chief who just like always has grievances, with all due respect to my brothers and sisters who are chiefs, and they have rightfully, rightfully still have the grievances. But the treaty relationship was really just working together. It's two people shaking hands, moving forward. And um, I quickly found out that um when you focus on similarities and synergies rather than just differences, you're gonna get some stuff done.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

I really love that because I completely agree with that approach. When you sit down and you go, This is where I'd like to go, but we're partners. So what's your feedback? What are your thoughts? How would you like to get there? It just changes the relationship. And I do hope that's the next generation of leadership from First Nation communities is showing up and saying, okay, we've got a host of problems and we're open to your feedback as long as you're open to ours and not um not taking that old school approach. And I understand why that existed, but it just, if we're going to be a level of government, we need to be accountable too, and we need to work within the parameters that are available. Did you have an influence of somebody who helped you come to that conclusion or something that told you to want to move in that direction instead?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

You know, it kind of just happened organically. Um, the first person we actually hired um when I wished when I we we became chief, um, again, it was difficult. We were running an $8 million deficit at the time, and we had some really tough financial choices, but we took a risk and hired Willie Littlechild. And Willie became my mentor. And of course, Willie's worked on an international level. Um, he was the first conservative Indigenous member of parliament or First Nations member of Parliament. And uh he's built his career on building bridges between Canadians and uh quite frankly, Canadians and First Nations people, Indigenous peoples, but even on an international level. So, you know, he really kind of molded my thought process in that regard and kind of just reassured me that this was the right thing to do rather than just saying Ottawa owes this, banging tables, yelling at them, or the city owes us this, and banging on tables and saying that to them and the province. So, you know, Willie Little Chud was a really huge influence on me.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

As you may have heard, our federal and provincial governments are all running deficits right now. I'd be interested in what your reflections were. How did you approach the deficit your First Nation community was facing, and what lessons do you take away from that?

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah, you know, uh, you know, I when I first became a member of Parliament, and there's a narrative out there. Hey, look, there's always bad actors, whether you're First Nations, Canada, Alberta, or any municipality. But I always found it a little weird, uh, and it kind of hit me when I became a member of Parliament. I'm a fiscal conservative. I just, I just am. I I remember as a kid, Ralph Klein holding up that sign saying there's no more, there's no more debt in Alberta. I just the the political nerd in me thought that was so cool. And that's what I I just I was influenced by that. Maybe even I always say the the kind of fiscal conservative I am is you know, a First Nations principle is of course, you you only eat what you take uh what you need. So if you're gonna use the buffalo, you got to use it all and uh you don't waste anything. So that's probably a basis of where my fiscal conservative comes from, too. But for First Nations in particular, when I went to Ottawa and there's this narrative out there that, you know, lots of them are corrupt and and they use public money and everything. But the actual fact is First Nations actually can't run deficits too much because we'd be put in third party under the Indian Act. And so I always thought that perplexing that Canada can run 60, 70 billion dollar deficits. But truly, First Nations can't. They put us in third party. And so, you know, I think that that conversation out there is a little skewed. Um, at the end of the day, for me, what was so important, we're a business nation, we've always been entrepreneurial, we're right next to the city of Edmonton. So we got to play our card. And we didn't talk to the city for a really, really long time. I remember talking to Mayor Iverson, and we just went through a history with his counsel on a board and we're like, whoa, we didn't know you did that. We didn't know you did that. So we had to build credibility and we have to build investment, just like Canada. We have to build uh um a system where people want to put capital in. If we didn't have our financial house in order, um we weren't getting buildings beyond just a casino. So we had to fix our financial house and proud that we did that. And now Enoch probably has over $500 million of investment from external forces coming in to build up our nation.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Was that hiring a lot of financial staff? Was that making cuts? How did you end up just reorganizing to that extent? I'm just thinking about where we find ourselves. Like, is it austerity that's gonna fix this? Is it this just growth that's gonna fix this? How do you get back to not running giant deficits?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah, so uh on a micro scale for my first nation, it it it wasn't, it was, it was, it was a balanced approach. So, you know, we cut we capped spending internally on our own public service. I mean, our public service actually, in my opinion, is still still out of hand, uh, with all due respect to my own First Nation. And they know my stance on that type of stuff. I mean, again, conservative coming out in me that I want to see more entrepreneurs rather than the nation just owning everything. Um, so we capped, we kept uh jobs, um, but at the same time, building up our fiscal house, we had to take uh we had to take risks to expand business and revenue. So it's it's both. It's not one or the other, it's both. And uh, you know, getting our fiscal house in order allowed us to get uh um some some loans, allowed us to get uh external investment. You know, when I first became counsel, I wasn't chief yet. We had to refinance our casino and we refinanced it for uh nearly $200 million at 12% interest rates. And that is that was crazy. But we had to do it. We don't regret doing it because we could pay off that loan, but that was a crazy amount of interest. And then after we proved ourselves for a couple of years, we put in a new financial law under the FB process, FMB process with Harold Calla and that group, uh first one in Alberta to get certified, actually. Um we brought those interest rates down to um lower than municipal rates. And so again, like like it was both. It was being responsible internally, capping spending, capping public service, really being due diligent and setting up the internal administrative structures, but also going out and getting that that capital to believe in you and to take risks on you to build things in the nation.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

What did you learn about yourself in that role?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

That's a great question, actually. Um What did I learn about myself in that role? I guess I learned that I'm a soccer for punishment. Uh the chief is is is uh first role leadership, everything's your fault, which is which is fine. Um you know, when I first ran to be uh uh an MP, I was asking Pierre, you know, like why as a conservatives, we always feel like we're we're cleaning up each other people's messes. Like that's what it feels like. And he's like, I kind of agree with you, or he did agree. And um I guess I I learned that I like a challenge. Like I like, I like not that my nation, my nation's bigger than just me as chief or anyone chief, but there was things to clean up, obviously, and things to grow. And um, I guess I just I learned that I like a challenge. And so, you know, I I I went out on my own terms, which I um I'm I'll pop my own tires. I think that was a great decision. And I think more politicians to do that. And um, I guess I now just aspire to make a change on a on a national level, similar to what I did on my own micronation for other First Nations. Um Enoch's not the one model, but I think there's principles that we've used that I can now influence on a national level to uh to make change. But it's gonna be hard. It's it's gonna be punishing, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

On a personal level, I'd just be curious as to how you developed this philosophy because what I've experienced, like this is my first year as chief and three years as counsel, is a lot of people were frustrated about housing not being fixed over 40 years. People were frustrated that the band didn't do enough to support and provide opportunities and resources. And so I think we're turning a lot of those corners. But I got hit with a lot of you're the third person to tell me that over 40 years, that you're gonna fix these things. And there was a lot of mistrust, and I think we're still building a lot of that back. But you can't take some of that personally because it's not about you, it's about the system they've operated within. But you also need to stay humble and eager, and you can't take the negativity and let it kind of reshape how you see what you want to do and the impact you can make. And as you describe, like I get calls like, oh, this problem is a rose. Like, and when I look at my phone, I just know there could be a problem on the other end. And it's it's you have to be careful not to get jaded by that, to still see it as an opportunity, to still wake up knowing you're the person who fixes problems. And I so see you as a person who sees all of the problems and goes, There's opportunities to grow, there's opportunities to develop, like we can get through these things. How did you develop that? Where did that come from for you?

SPEAKER_00 16:05

I'm not sure nothing's hitting for me in particular where that came from. But I guess, you know, stepping into the role of chief, you know, um, it's probably so my background's I did civil engineering diploma. I actually didn't I didn't do too much in the actual field of civil engineering. I kind of immediately stepped into public service for the government of Alberta as my first step of my career. Um, but also with civil engineering, uh, a diploma that I had, um, a lot of it was project management. So my brain's shaped that way now. That's how I do politics. And so, of course, I'm a politician, I have an ego. I want to do some really cool things. Um, but just just results. Like, like it's it's a cliche, but I actually hear a lot more politicians on any level saying it's like, get shit done. Like, like, and it's kind of a tagline um in the community, right? Because we're at when I was chief, like we're we're here for results. Like, I can give you some cool words and rhetoric. Um, I can I can talk like a politician. I I am one. I don't think it has to be a dirty word, but I I would really just focus on okay, what's the result we want? And that'd be better that would be at every level. That would be with my auntie who had a how a housing problem, and that would be up to how we're spending $80 million in our budget. Like, we need results, we need KPIs. And um that was kind of a philosophy that that still resonates in our community. Um it's it's something that uh you know, we we put every community has uh challenges at the end of the day and and everything. But uh when you really focus on the results, um it's it's a positive question because because you're building something. Like we can we I can see that school, it just got built. Oh, my my kids going to uh university for the first time. Um that's a result. That's uh that's that's what we're focused on. And so that really that really just less politician, more project manager is what I say is is how I evolved.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

You've talked about how First Nations don't simply need more investment from governments, that they need empowerment. Could you elaborate?

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, you know, um I think it was Lisa Raite, um, maybe through Howard Cowell. I know it was Harold Cowell who told me this, but you know, being a conservative, obviously I'm partisan. Uh I know you you yourself, you say you're nonpartisan, um, but obviously I am, clearly. And you know, at this at the at the federal level, um a quote was given to me. Um it was Lisa Wright in a room who's a good friend of mine, and uh it was either her saying it or somebody was saying it to her. Uh liberals will spend more money on First Nations and Indigenous communities, but conservatives will empower them more. And um you know, ISD's a $25 billion budget. I'm looking over the plan, they have it right in front of me for the department, and it's it's it's a slap in the face insulting on what this plan is for a $25 billion budget. And uh being a first-time MP a year in, basically as of three weeks ago, um, the Indigenous Affairs, Indigenous Services Canada is just a broken system. 8,000 employees, $25 billion budgets, and KPIs from 2015 uh that make absolutely no sense. So it's not it's not a money issue to me, it's a systematic fix. And so, you know, like um I need to see a culture change in our nations to be more responsible, um, to take up leadership and not be under the thumb of Ottawa. And so my mission is to tear down IFC. Uh, you know, I've been I it's kind of controversial in some circles, but I want to be the last IFC minister. We'll always have a CERNAC minister, but we we don't need Ottawa doing 22,000 programs. That's how much they do out of one department with 8,000 employees to 600 plus First Nations Maitian and UI communities. That is a broken system. And uh we need to empower the nations more rather than just being another huge band office to administer them.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Could you elaborate a little bit more on how you're seeing that playing out? Because right now for myself, Indigenous Services Canada is funding our water upgrades, our sewage upgrades. They're supporting with subdivision feasibility studies, infrastructure upgrades. What does that transition look like in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

We got a we got a well, right now I'm I'm not sure what you're on, Aaron. You could be on a two-year or a three-year contribution agreement. Um, my nation moved to the 10-year grant agreement, um, which is fine. It's a great step in the right direction. And so all these are quantified through inflation and everything. Uh, through the grant agreement, the 10-year one, um, our reporting responsibility is basically an audit and we get the money and we get to spend it. We don't have to go through 50 programs, we just get one lump sum money and we're responsible. So it's worked for us. But that's still not a step in the right direction, as much as I see. It's gonna take a few years to do this, but I really want to open up a conversation around um territorial transfers. So, like, can we just get transfers from Ottawa that are statute-based, not just because Ottawa can take this money away like they're doing in child welfare, they're making cutbacks, but treat us more like we're not provinces, we're our own thing. We're not municipalities, we're our own thing. But the Northwest territories get territorial transfer agreements. Um, the provinces get their agreements um and they get the money how they want to spend it. I need to see more of that for First Nations, and that's got to include capital as well. Um, we got to be open to uh different ways of funding First Nations. Uh, I love that Pierre came out with the First Nations resource charge. So he was willing to take a hit on large resource projects from a tax base and fund those directly to First Nations. So I got to help quantify this and create a formula, um, not one size fits all, but flexible enough that we can make the biggest push across the country to get rid of the 8,000 and uh 8,000 bureaucracy and uh $25 billion budget where things don't things aren't getting better. They're getting worse.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

And what I hear, like my understanding, we work with Indigenous Services Canada, but it's on our provincial system. And so we work very well with them. But it seems like a lot of the issues from from what I can the tea leaves that I can gather is a lot of the issues are the Ottawa bureaucracy in how they control funds that. reach the provinces and then get sent out. Is that your understanding as well?

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah, it it uh you know you peel back the onion being in Ottawa for the last year. I worked well with my RDG. Like I said, I'm I'm I'm there to work with people. Uh uh they get a lot of shit, but I worked well with my RDG. It just again, like that's the philosophy I have. You just work with people. Uh you can have differences, but you work with people. And um you know I I had a great relationship regionally in Alberta. But now being in in in Ottawa, you just realize like I was talking to the deputy minister and this is public and I I don't I don't wish to to embarrass or or put down public servants. They're they're real people at the end of the day. But I I had to ask them here's your here's your here's your plan. Doesn't the auditor general's um uh report inform me how you plan she said yes well I'm looking at your plan and it has um KPIs from 2015 and they're the same for the last three years the same exact number so are these just copy and pasted and while we don't copy and paste well it really looks that way to me uh that you do and again it just reflects that the the Ottawa bureaucrats who hold the pen on a lot of things are still just so disconnected from communities. I mean how you run I I still just call it a big band office and you can't have a band office that runs and does things fairly for 600 plus distinct communities um and on top of that Inuit and Metis across the second biggest landmass in in the world. So things systematically have to change and and a huge thing that I'll I'll I'll hopefully help shake up one day is is uh less bureaucracy, less Audible and just more power back the nations themselves.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Yeah I just wanted to ask you about that the Auditor General found that Indigenous Services Canada's spending rose significantly while outcomes still lagged.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

How do you get them to change their mindset on how they administer it well I uh um you know I I I I always tell people like I I'm a I'm a huge WAB fan um he does good things um I have ultimate respect for my counterpart Minister Golnasty on the liberal side and uh we have some awesome First Nations indigenous uh representation across multiple levels of government but we need to be at these tables and uh what we need to what we need to have is is an opposition voice. You know I uh when I door knock a lot of people you're you're Billy right yeah yeah but why are you a conservative like like why are you a conservative and I can get to that in a minute but the whole point being to answer your question is I a good opposition um from a First Nations perspective is going to help push the liberal government to do better. And if it was vice versa, I would expect them as much. And we just haven't had a First Nations representative on the conservative team. We got Els Ross of course that's my counterpart here from BC who's uh helps me do great work. Um but I I I I I I really enjoy pushing the liberal government to do better. It's it's what we're doing right now on Bill S2. Uh and sort of do what we're doing on a few other things. So a good opposition will help them uh realize that they can't just do reconciliation uh in a fake way anymore.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

It's got to be really tangible You've emphasized economic development transparency long-term planning free culture and moving away from dependency.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

How do you look at reconciliation as we look out into the future Well I've heard you say it like reconciliation um has to maybe have an end date and and I agree you know I I feel actually really harsh for saying this but I it it's truly how I feel like like I said in in my last speech before coming on break that um the government has cheapened reconciliation to a little talking point and and you know I was asked by a few people do you think reconciliation is done? I think the word is now kind of over I I think we need to find something completely new on what's the next chapter just for First Nations indigenous relations with Ottawa in particular and probably all levels of government. What's next? And I just see business as a universal language across the globe internally from human to human being. And again it's something that we can find tangible results on that something we can measure and uh it's it's a language and it's economics like it's socioeconomics I probably sound like the classic conservative that I'm only focusing on that. I'm not um in fact uh you know my my the ministry I oversees it it's its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness you you get to deal with a lot the scope is huge um which is really fun but also you can get spread way too thin. I think the minister has that problem right now. So when you focus on economics um you can make tangible change quick and that's that's what I just like to do.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

This is going to be one of my controversial questions. I look at the BCAFN the AFN UBC IC and my frustration with them is I don't feel they truly derive a mandate from members. I don't feel like they derive a mandate from individual First Nations people the way you as chief are accountable to that family business, the way you're accountable to those members in the same way. So the rhetoric really can drift away from the realities of First Nations communities from my perspective and then to your point about like they're they're just going out always asking for more money that we need more investment. We need more investment and there's really no incentive for them to one look back at the First Nation communities and go, how are you spending this money? How do you use it best? How do you act fiscally responsible when you receive it? They're not really looking back at communities and going, we've gotten you 25 billion in investments hypothetically and the quality of living conditions for your members hasn't improved. How do we help you reach those goals? They're only looking at governments for more money and I worry that they're the ones leading a lot of these conversations federally and oftentimes provincially what are your thoughts on those what I would call lobbying First Nation organizations well I to be fair if I say less Ottawa I also have to say probably less middlemen when it comes to our own organizations that we're a part of or not a part of the indigenous ones.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

So the AFN the regional AFN groups um things like that because I have seen a lot of them morph into um overreach in terms of governance overreach in terms of being a voice for us collectively um your your podcast uh your your podcast name is is actually really cool it's it's nuanced and I've I've watched other people on your podcast say uh say that and these organizations sometimes don't they they lose the art of having nuanced conversations on the people they represent so they have overreach in terms of developing child welfare laws and they didn't have that mandate they have overreach in in running social programs when they didn't have that mandate. They're political for the most part they can be political organizations lobby groups because being in a collective is going to get you more power but obviously they get out of hand. So you know I want to see less AFN I'm not to say the AFN has to go away but the government the government often will use them um as a sounding board and an excuse to enforce crappy legislation that that maybe Enoch didn't like it but your nation liked it. Maybe a a nation in BC liked it but the other side of the country didn't like it.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

And so the government often uses these organizations as as kind of a a patsy to get things done when when again we have to change the relationship to be more direct fascinating you're heading to Vancouver for a discussion on private property rights uh with the uh honorable leader of the opposition Pierre Polyev. How should Canada reconcile Aboriginal title with the certainty for homeowners and their private property?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Well I I you know like I I I live in Alberta so it's a treaty one I I I'm not a lawyer but I I get the gist of of the challenge you you guys have in BC I will say uh probably being a little bit too political here I I hesitate to comment on things BC because I'm not a BC resident but I have to as a member of parliament and just my role so of course I'm going there to be a part of the conversation um property rights just it my mind went to the worst case scenario and people with who are are experiencing that fear as you have said it's a real fear that needs to be acknowledged and empathized with because the worst case scenario here is if if if there's a conflict between property rights and in and Aboriginal title ownership it it can get really ugly. Like like I don't we don't need to focus again on on differences. We don't need conflict that you can see the potential to to happen there with property rights. And so we have to put property rights first. I do like it that the First Nations say you know we're not after property rights, but there still exists this debate on where things are going and so we'll have to let that play out with a whole bunch of voices but we have to put property rights first because the potential for conflict if that gets convoluted too much more is pretty dangerous to just to human beings in general do you think that the federal government and the provincial government are doing enough to respond to these fears? No, no I'm again like I I hesitate to comment on your politics in BC but I think you know it's politics is is you get out what you put in business and uh it looks pretty messy from the side of the mountains looking over the hill there from your provincial government perspective. But I'll be as respectful as I can and leave that up to the BC residents. But my responsibility quite frankly is a federal level and so I I can comment on that a lot more and um again what I would say out of the out of the federal government and the liberals at this moment is uh they're First Nations are ultimately section 35. So they have a pen on this ultimately too as well. And my job is to hold uh the Kearney government accountable on this um they've been pretty quiet. Um I get it politicians say things uh with a lot of rhetoric and that's all I hear out of them. I don't hear any leadership on this one. And I was talking to um House leader Warbus just getting her perspective getting the lay of the land there in BC from an actual BC person. And she gave me a great quote she said you know we have to run towards hard conversations not run away from them. It's a tough position to be in as an indigenous conservative but I want to help be a part of the leadership thing. And so that includes the federal government. I think they've been way too quiet on this. I think there's too much um uncertainty in the whole thing. You know we have and it's it's as you know it's it's a complicated thing as people talk about UNDRIP they'll talk about property rights then they'll talk about Cam loops then they'll talk about uh Muswiam then they'll talk about DRIPA and all these things are related but there's nuances as to why they're different. And uh I have to hold the government accountable at a federal level and all those things because ultimately again First Nations are a federal jurisdiction and we have a show leadership at that level too.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

That's a really interesting point and I guess I'd just be interested on your take. I find um and you you made the point earlier that when you're in these positions where you're accountable to your neighbor, when you're accountable to somebody right down the road, it just changes your relationship with leadership and the ability to have hard conversations. And as you you may know, like I try and do that as much as possible on the show because I feel like I'm be I'm being left behind by the federal government and and my provincial government of being the only one willing to have really uncomfortable conversations and to demonstrate that it's possible without calling people racist or white supremacist or just insulting people. What do you think is going on more broadly about our leaders that they're just avoiding these types of conversations it feels like there's a real currency right now if you're willing to do that. And I just don't see a lot of that taking place.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah um you know I I was watching a few of your last podcasts and um I stole from you guys because I was asked you know what would you do in VC? And again I was trying to hesitate around commenting because I'm not a VC guy to get in a level of detail. But you know um I forget who you were talking to but they were talking about you know what what Alberta did um they did that blue ribbon panel and um you know I was even reflecting I'll I'll I'll play our former prime minister a compliment as much as I think he did a horrible job. But um Trudeau when he first got elected went out and did these town halls and he got a lot of crap for it. But the the the art of just getting back into these spaces and having these conversations was lost for so long. Maybe it was social media era, maybe it's going to be AR, whatever, however we evolved but really empowering democracy old school, going door to door, um having town halls, we need more of that and you know the prime minister is this corporate guy who's really good at making announcements and being at a podium but he's also that corporate guy from from Toronto and um New York. I'm not sure he knows how to go have town halls. Um can he and can he be the leader? Well I'm not sure he will be um conservatives work for him and that's why I'm with Pierre tomorrow doing literally town halls. Um we have to get back to those tougher conversations and lead that way for just basic democracy. Why are you a conservative I align my values as a human being um with conservative values the best ones um you know when I walk to the doors and people ask me like you're Billy again, but you're conservative they give me that look and I'm like yeah yeah let's have this conversation and so I believe in fiscal responsibility I believe in less government um and this is primarily from my First Nations perspective I believe in less government I don't believe in government overreach uh I believe in traditional values um history keeping history alive um language and culture and just uh Canadiana I believe in in in I'm capitalist uh um I believe in business going forward and having a free market um and a lot of those values don't have to be at odds with who I am as a First Nations people and what the I love having the conversation of like how these values actually align with our traditional values in a lot of ways too not everything obviously but uh that's why I am a conservative because it's a little bit more of a results oriented party rather than just a talking party in my opinion. How did you come to that conclusion after you were chief what what shaped your decision uh to choose a political party and put your name forward well um Alberta is is is kind of the heart of conservativism in in in Canada you know behind me is this painting um with me working with the federal or the provincial government in particular it's First Nations and uh the legislator working together um and uh I'll I'll I'll say it this way back going back to my story when I first became chief walking into the room with um Premier Notley and uh you know I was different I I said hey can I help you with healthcare and she said okay tell me more well how much do you spend on healthcare? Uh billions how much of your budget a lot it's the biggest expense it's going up right yeah she's like yeah it's going up well what if I can help you at that I'm not asking I'm not asking for for permission I'm asking for a partner um I want to build a surgical center and I want to be public and private and she said no no no no no no no no no no you we you gotta know who you're talking to we're not doing that well I'm I'm looking for partnership and I'm looking for solutions and and I'm not looking for permission. And so that conversation ended I want to help healthcare um she just wasn't having it when the conservatives got in under Jason Canney I made the same pitch the day he got elected and he said let's do this because we're gonna we just have to take new risks in healthcare. And so we're gonna open up our surgical center here in two months. It's the first on reserve surgical center in Canada. And it's because a conservative government wanted to get results. It's a it's a conservative government wanted to do things new. It was a conservative government that still upholds public health care, but wanted to uh actually try take some risk and do something good with First Nations rather than just saying no, no, we don't believe in that you and I both know that there is a default position for First Nations and Indigenous people to go liberal and NDP and not ask any questions and not push back.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

They're considered very safe voters. What would you say to those individuals who feel like they're obligated to fall under those two parties or they're joining a white supremacist organization that hates them sorry but like which which individuals the ones that vote for NDP and liberals?

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Exactly yes yeah um how do you how are you are you enjoying the results like like are are are the results good enough for you like uh and I'm sure they are for some people but if you broadly ask First nations in particular across this country if things are getting better at the speeds and and how they expected them to under the last 10 years in particular 11 years um I don't think you'll you'll hear a lot of chiefs or First Nations people in general say like overall things are are are getting better under these governments. So you know my interest in these spaces is you know I don't go I'm partisan I'm conservative everybody knows that but I don't approach the conversation with I need your votes I need your votes it's how you actually do it and this is this is actually pretty cool. I'm I'm not bull and smoke, but like I enjoyed the the conversation can you look at it from this perspective well here's another way of thinking about it and I love seeing the light bulbs go off in people where like oh I didn't assume I didn't know that. I didn't know Pierre Polyev was willing to share tax resources with First Nations. The Chiefs from Alberta are always all about uh resource revenue sharing. And I'm like well Pierre's halfway there and you are always about resource revenue sharing since the 1930s Natural Resource Transfer Act you see it as a violation these two thought processes align more than the conversations you're having with liberals at the moment um let's have this one and it it it seems to open up new ideas and and ways to go forward. So that's that's what I would say to those people is is just think about it from a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Where do you think the bias from First Nations to assume NDP and liberal are going to be better to them comes from well we're the conservatives aren't perfect.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

I mean um provincially right now um of course we're going through uh a separation referendum here in Alberta and um it was treaty rights uh that was trying to stop that obviously and uh First Nations are put into a a weird spot here in Alberta of wanting to fight for Canada, uphold treaty rights, but also being pitted against um um in in this separation question. So you know conservatives conservatives um conservatives have done some some things uh over the years that uh obviously weren't exactly indigenous friendly to like all parties do uh I would say liberals are have been in power for 11 years and they've they've obviously not done a good job on anything and um you know over the last 11 years uh you know I think the with all the money being spent and everything um the other parties have done a a decent job at villainizing cons conservatives I love I love my caucus uh I feel very heard there um I feel very um inspired to contribute and uh we just need more people in all parties at the end of the day what are your thoughts on Pierre Polyev? Uh Pierre um I wish Pierre was prime minister um I aligned with Pierre because again he's he's he's I I I you know I was reading his his bio from Andrew and and brevity I I actually just appreciate brevity. I I appreciate less jargon I re appreciate results and and Pierre is really good at summarizing um complex issues down to results oriented from every Canadian uh family across the country level and and that speaks to me as a First Nations person that speaks to me as just uh a kid from Edmund Alberta that speaks to me on where this country needs to go because I don't think this country is on the right track. I wouldn't have I would have I wouldn't have run if I did if I if I just thought um if if things were going the right way they were supposed to so I still think Pierre Polyev uh I don't think I know Pierre Polyev is is the right person for our party and I think Pierre Polyev is still the right person to be Prime Minister one day. You were recorded saying liberals were trying to poach you what happened who approached you can you tell us the backstory yeah um so you know uh last year when Chris Dontremont left uh that was kind of the the first the first iteration of when you know we were on track there were the government was on track to start poaching even more people and uh a few people were musing with me um some of the other MPs on the other side and and finally it's pretty public now it's out there um Minister Galmasse just formally sent me a message saying do you want to have this conversation and um it's always been a no for me at the end of the day. Again like uh for for me I feel very valued in my party um I'm not about to uh betray the constituents that elect me as a conservative and uh the way she put it too actually when you really look at the word she used was like we just need eight more people that's what we're that's what we're after. So I'm just gonna be I'm just gonna be a number over there like like what would I come over there for? To do what? Like I I think I have more power influencing you from the opposition and helping you quite frankly um by challenging you to be better on this team for the ultimate greater good of our communities in Canada The liberals have tried to push this as anybody who wants to speak to us can come speak to us.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

And they tried to pitch it as they're not going looking for for these conversations. Do you think that that's dishonest?

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah, absolutely. They they they they tried, at least for my personal pers my personal experience, they came, they came after me. They didn't uh they didn't uh wait for for me to to go talk to them. It was it was amusing and it was quite frankly let's get serious about talking about this. And so uh yeah that's dishonest when when they portray it that way.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

A lot of Canadians are fearful and I did a breakdown in response to this about what was offered. Like how were they getting these people people who some of them who were longtime conservatives switching over who were against vaccine mandates and like who had a real roster of like stating they were against things being able to get them to go over and the liberals have not shared what was offered how they came to that arrangement and I think Canadians are rightfully concerned.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

What would you say to Canadians that are concerned about what was offered to some of these individuals well what's what's more important like like staying true to principles and and values and how we run this country are just backroom deals like like and I think that's a reflection of how the liberals the liberals um the liberals are as a party they're just they're just not principled. And um that was what Andrew Shear said too is like they have the advantage of not having any principles and so I guess they're really good politicians that way. I do believe we're all politicians have to be a bad word but it can be bad in that context. Like who's really running this country? It's a reflection of of um uh some of the ethics things that they continuously go through. Um and that's just not um what I agree with on who should be running this this country. I think we just need a more principled leader under Pierre Polyev and a conservative government. And again like I I don't know if there I I do know this country this country doesn't seem to be on the right path at the end of the day. And it's a reflection of the government.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

There are individuals like David from Moose on the Loose. I don't know if you know that YouTube channel um he's become very popular. I think he's one of the most influential YouTube commentators and he's flirting with the idea that there are literally offshore accounts that these MPs are receiving money in that are off the books. Like that these are the things he's saying. And I'm just like that him saying that I'm not saying he's correct. I'm just saying him saying that really reduces the trust and confidence that British Columbians and Canadians can have in their elected officials when this is not being tampered down with clear information from the Liberal Party saying this is what was offered, this is how the deal was arranged this is how it went this is why this person crossed over when you just leave it to they wanted to and you look at the person's track record and it it really looks like they were on the completely other side of all of these issues and then moved over I don't think it's unreasonable for people to speculate when there's a vacuum and there's no information filling it. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 46:59

No it's not unreasonable at all quite frankly and it's it's to me it's a little personally baffling that this this this doesn't go um more notice quite frankly by Canadians. I mean when Lori crossed the floor it came to light that um she had to re redact a uh a payment to her own company again reflective of her going to the liberals it's just it's just what they do and and at the end of the day why are we even having these conversations we have um we have uh the the we have the uh ethics commission we have all those rules in place but these this conversation continuously happens and and they just slough it off like it's no big deal and continuously these stories build up without them actually addressing any of the root causes or or let's let's change the system to be even more transparent. But they they slough it off and at the end of the day uh Canadians just it's it's it's a weird paradox in that there's still government but um they have all these scandals coming up I mean Mark Carney I don't think has ever denied that bike shop on on a formal uh a formal level of where his tax haven is in in the Bahamas or Bermuda wherever it is and so uh these stories are going to continue um and it's not gonna be a surprise to us conservatives and we'll just have to keep the Mark handle at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

What are your thoughts on just staying on the David from Moose on the Loose? He has this whole Moose chart charting out all of uh Mark Carney's uh potential conflicts of interest and I think it's just if anything else a statement of citizen journalism and a willingness to kind of grapple with some of these deeper questions. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Well I haven't seen David uh Moose on the loose's chart I've I've I've kind of I know about a little bit I don't know about it in detail but what your question uh makes me think of uh as a as a real instance is you know when Michael Sabia who's on the prime minister's uh internal team was asked in committee on whether he divested from Brookfield shares before he took up this role he said yeah I I knew it was going to be a conflict but the prime minister hasn't done that he hasn't he hasn't clarified that he's gotten rid of these conflicts of interest so my his his advisor who's a very smart guy said I'll do that it was pretty obvious to get rid of the conflict I don't need that that I don't need that um that conflict on on here before I took this job as as an advisor at the prime minister's office but the prime minister himself can't do that I find that I find that perplexing at the end of the day I as you said I'm nonpartisan but I will call balls and stripes when I see them and I see a lot of the media and a lot of liberals going look it now that Mark Carney's got his majority that's proof that Pierre Polyev's a bad leader and that he's not fit to govern.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

And all I think of is like this is proof of nothing you did backroom deals you won't be transparent with Canadians and you resulted in getting a majority that the democratic system did not give you in the election. This is not proof to me about anything about Pierre Polyev. He just succeeded in his leadership race which everybody was speculating he wasn't going to succeed on this is this is you cannot make a conclusion about Pierre Polyev's character who he is based on what the liberal government has do been doing. And I just wonder how you grapple with the media and a lot of liberals saying like this is the end of Pierre Polyev.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

In fact he's pretty happy and I'll be joining Pierre as you know tomorrow but um in particular yesterday uh he stood up and said he's gonna go fight for Canada and Alberta to be gathered and so I'm pretty excited for that stuff too it it presents an opportunity to lead um in our own backyard in Alberta for conservatives so Pierre's not going anywhere uh he's gonna be a great leader but when it comes to the media and the liberals in particular you know the dynamic I guess is that everybody was ready to move on from Trudeau um Pierre is probably the most successful opposition leader and was was expected to be prime minister and when Mark Carney won um the media still needed uh the to the opposition it's just it I find it perplexing in that they seem to hold conservatives more accountable than than than the actual government itself like and I I I probably sound like you know the the classic conservative like the media is bad and everything uh it's a it's a it's a flowing it's a flowing bigger picture but even just just in the last 24 hours we had a media story come out that uh what was it 12 or 14 uh liberal mps penned uh penned a um a letter to the prime minister citing the Alberta mou and walking back environmental environmental um uh leadership from a liberal perspective so they're concerned there but they don't name they don't they didn't name any of the MPs this is from CBC like if that was a conservative letter to Pierre Polliv, rest assured you'd have names you'd have you'd have a whole bunch of things going off they wouldn't hide it but it seems like the CBC is protecting liberals quite frankly again.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

And just to that point again trying to call balls and strifes is it's the role of the government to be scrutinized by everyone because they have power they have money and they have a budget of approved spending the role of the official opposition is to be a government in waiting that demonstrates different policy alternatives. And when I've spoken about DRIPA the big point I made is at the time the BC liberals voted with the NDP to approve DRIPA and that's not their job. Their job is not to just back what the government's doing when it's a feel good moment. It's to provide other pathways forward. And so they need to be given more deference is what I argued on X. The conservatives should be given more deference because they're just providing alternatives. So we don't have to attack the alternatives because that's not what's going to lead the day in the end anyways. We have to hold the government accountable. I don't think any journalist should ever be running cover for the government of the day because they have a PR team and a communication staff to lay out their side. We need to be highlighting what the conservatives think so we understand what two options are on the table rather than villainizing one, which is what I see a lot on CBC and others is making it seem like Pierre Pauliev's ideas are extreme or crazy. They're just the alternative to the government leading the day. And I just I'm I'm often surprised at how much criticism the conservatives get when you have no power and authority to make law.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Yeah I I again like I I'm I'm in the Ottawa bubble now and it truly is a bubble that is my reflection my reflection from an Indigenous perspective with the file that I hold with ISC and it's just the Ottawa bubble with government. And you know at the end of the day um the government subsidizes media I I'm not saying that's completely wrong. I think we do need strong media traditional and and the evolution of independent media and how that's going forward in this country. But at the end of the day those people know where their bread and butter comes from in the Ottawa bubble the media in particular there and um there it the system's just rigged for them to to not attack uh where their bread and butter comes from and that's the reality of it but we'll we'll we'll not use that as an excuse and just keep challenging and empowering quite frankly independent media so I mean yourself um uh you represent kind of that that new voice that doesn't have to that doesn't have to be under that system anymore and it's it's it's it's what we have to leverage to keep uh the message to to inform Canadians a few more quick questions and thank you for sharing your time what are your perspectives on Prime Minister Mark Carney um he came in with a lot of bluster um he came in saying he's gonna fight Trump and stand up to him um he's probably more he's not probably he's clearly more um focused on politics than rather than standing up for the for leveraging that that fear than actually leading this country I mean you know he said he was going to get a deal done last summer um Mexico's ahead of us apparently in negotiations with our biggest ally and so I think he's uh a lot more of a politician than I than a businessman than I think people give him credit for and and and and it's coming at the cost of of actually getting this country back on the right track. So for for Mark Carney um I think he came in with high expectations but all I've seen out of this uh this government for last year is is a lot of talk so you know like even the Alberta MOU um you know where we want to build that speeds not seen in generations but we we we're gonna announce something then we're gonna announce the next step of the plan then we're gonna announce the next step of the plan then we're gonna announce another plan a plan to have a plan that's all I really see out of this this this government and again like the lost art form of consultation and getting there on the ground I mean it was even reflective of his minister his natural resource minister Tim Hodson's uh uh comment when he was asked about First Nations consultation well they want you to go see them well there's a thing called zoom is what he said and again it's like these guys these guys are a little bit more political than they were actual leaders at the end of the day so uh obviously I'm partisan but I'm gonna give uh Mark Kearney a failing grade on the expectations he set and the results that we're actually getting a year in how worried are you about China's influence on First Nation communities that's a great question. Um I'd be curious to hear a little bit more from the BC First Nations perspective so I'm going to BC tomorrow so maybe I'll make some inquiries um being a member of parliament I've again like uh I was from a small first nation um I didn't deal lots with immigration that's um a lot of my role at this moment in time and you know if you get educated on international files being a member of parliament for Canada and you do see some stuff that surprises you and that I was ignorant towards when it comes to Chinese interference at micro levels across nomination things like that. So I think it's a definitely real concern that we just can't slough. And it's one of those again like uh um House Leader Warbus said it's probably a tough conversation that we got to actually run towards and address rather than just keeping it in the shadows at the end of the day. So it raises a new challenge for me that you asked that question and I'll have to be educated more. So am I sounding alarm bells the alarm that there has to be investigations today? No, but I think we have to bring this conversation out into the open more as a society and as the Indigenous leaders and Canadian leaders.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

I don't know how much you've kept up on the 215 anomalies uh in Camloops but how do we balance having uh tough conversations about the realities of the lack of excavation uh with calling people like Francis Widowson and others denialists Yeah um this one's uh this one's tough.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

I mean it gets lost in again it gets lost in in UNDRIP it gets lost in Dripa it gets lost in residential schools it gets lost like in Stephen Harper's apology for residential schools I was just reading that yesterday actually and um you know I have to tell some people who've started the narrative that uh you know residential schools were good they were they were intended to do good and it's just like guys like there's a reason why Stephen Harper apologized. You know Camloops is a very difficult situation um I think it's gotten to the point though that Camloops banned um owes a little bit more not a little bit more owes transparency for public dollars uh that were spent there um you know when First Nations uh transparency act uh implemented by a conservative government and not implemented by this liberal one I I always actually defend that document um because chiefs have to report public dollars and where it goes uh even Canadian public dollars I I won't waver from that I think it's totally fair as a First Nations person and non-Indigenous person when from their perspective and so there's some outstanding answers I think that are owed for just that one particular band in sight. And um there are real questions that need to be answered at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Chief Billy Moran thank you for being willing to share your time with us today and discuss a lot of these really challenging topics uh I'll be honest when I saw uh the comments about you not floor crossing it was refreshing just because um I've long struggled with whether or not any of our politicians have integrity, have a sense of principle that they're willing to hold to and that's only comes out through action and demonstration. And I don't believe that there should be an option to cross the floor if I had my way. I think it should go to a by-election and I understand that that's not our system today, but when I heard that and when I heard your comments it was just really refreshing and meant a lot to know that people can stand on principles and that that's not removed through the Ottawa bubble. And it just meant a great deal. And I enjoy following your work I saw the comments you had made on stage about not becoming like the reserve system and relying on funding from the federal government come out. And I just I I think there's a way to address so many of the problems First Nations and others face without getting into partisan politics and with just focusing on results. And I find we've fallen so much in love with 15 billion for this, 20 billion for that, rather than going, what are the outcomes you're willing to deliver and how do we keep the cost as low as possible? And I hope we can get back to a politics that looks like that. And with individuals like yourself involved I have confidence that that might be possible.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

No thank you for that and it what you're making me reflect on is is between BC and and some of the indigenous challenges out there and Alberta separatism it goes back on what's the topic of the day for me. So today it's Alberta separatism in my mind now after after watching the premier speak last night uh obviously I'm not a separatist and we'll be campaigning with Pierre to keep Alberta in Canada but you know the separatists um have valid had valid um valid concerns with Ottawa valid frustrations with Ottawa but you know who else does? First Nations people and referendum or not we're not moving they're not moving. And so let's talk about the similarities and what we can do together rather than just focusing on separatism because we do have things in common. I I actually agree when the premier says that uh Ottawa has their foot on on Alberta too much. Well you know who else they they have their foot over First Nations. And so how do we leverage um that challenge and our desire to change that together to push back on Ottawa and the powers that be so let's focus on our similarities and the results rather than just our differences at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

Just briefly on that, because uh you brought it up a few times and I've avoided touching on it, but I have a feeling we're playing a bit of 40 chess here. And one, uh my understanding is that there's a lot of pressure within Premier Daniel Smith's caucus to proceed with this referendum. But two, I mean you could not have more pressure on the Liberal Party right now to start performing on some of the things you're describing with this pending referendum. So even just the door being open places a ton of pressure on the Liberal Party of Canada to start delivering on some of their claims about a pipeline and stuff. And I think that that may be uh a chess move that's being played here.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Well uh yeah it's it's it's it's it's a game of poker with federalism and a whole bunch of things at the end of the day. Um but I would I also reflect on from for them uh they have to be leaders and so you know my question before I left even Ottawa two weeks ago was like why why when why whenever there's a a a separation referendum in Quebec it's a liberal government why why in BC that we see so much division um between First Nations and these questions uh between ordinary residents of BC there's liberal government in Ottawa why is it why is separatism is at an all-time high and there's a potential referendum in Alberta there's a liberal government in Ottawa like like there's a correlation here everybody and I think it's pretty obvious and it's something the liberals uh clearly um have some work to do and uh I look forward with Pierre to actually just the opportunity to lead um a conversation here in Alberta in particular to keep us together.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

Absolutely thank you again Chief Billy Morin for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Yeah thank you